Ukraine is capable to overcome corruption. Three things are required – Lavly Perling, member of the Ethics Council

On January 12 the Congress of judges has selected 8 members of the High Council of Justice under their quota. The High Council of Justice, the judiciary’s highest governing body, got back its plenipotentiary status, and Ukraine has fulfilled one of the key requirements to maintain its candidate status for EU membership.

The Ethics Council assists in the selecting the HCJ members. We talked to one of its international members Ms Lavly Perling, the ex-Prosecutor General of the Republic of Estonia. For more information about the Ethics Council’s work, selection of candidates and importance of the judicial reform for Ukraine, please, read the full interview.

– A recent Extraordinary Congress of Judges selected eight members of the High Council of Justice. This has finally helped to unlock its work as newly selected members added up to make a 15-strong High Council of Justice, the minimum quorum necessary for decision-making. What is the role of the Ethics Council in this process?

– It is a great honour for us, the international members of the Ethics Council, to work for Ukraine and contribute to the judicial reform. We are keen on Ukraine, our ally, becoming a powerful state. A powerful state is primarily about a well-functioning legal system. It is essential that the society in and outside the country understands that this system needs to be transparent. After all, it drives the development of the economy and other sectors, as well as helps raise investment. Therefore, it is a great win that the HCJ members were selected making the Council able to make decisions. We do hope that the new High Council of Justice is ready to take every effort to fight corruption.

– What can you say about the new HCJ members selected by the Congress of Judges from amongst those recommended by the Ethics Council? Have you managed to select the best? Representatives of the civil society have many complaints about it. Will this High Council of Justice be fundamentally better than the previous one?

– I am sure that this Council will be better than the previous one. During the selection we did not make any compromises, especially in terms of integrity. All members of the Ethics Council have closely examined the documents, analysed the data that we had, and put many questions, including tough ones, to all candidates without exception. We made our decisions only afterwards. I believe we have succeeded. The High Council of Justice has new members on board. Such people always generate new ideas, give new insights, and shape the future.

– Please tell us more about how the Ethics Council works. What is its mission? How are the HCJ candidate members assessed? How do you verify information and documents submitted by the candidates?

– The Ethics Council began to work on 9 November 2021. Some time later, all processes became fully operational, and we embarked on the detailed examination of every candidate for the position of a member of the High Council of Justice. We had a lot of documents and different data at our disposal. Everything that needs to be analysed from the candidate’s income to the sources of origin of this income. We can ask questions to the candidates only after completing this first stage. Interviews with candidates are the tip of the iceberg, the final phase of our assessment. They are always preceded by the full cycle of verification, sometimes in several rounds.

A team of experts and analysts helps members of the Ethics Council do their job well, and we are very grateful to them for their contribution. After all, they prepare analytics for us and provide information on the laws of Ukraine. We work with all these inputs, which then inform our decisions. Unfortunately, we are not physically in Ukraine now but we keep an ongoing dialogue and have a lot of discussions to get a good result at the end of the day.

– What questions do you put to the candidates during the interviews? What are the most frequently asked questions?

– We have several categories of the most frequently asked questions: the first category deals with the laws of Ukraine. Apparently, international experts are not so well versed in Ukrainian laws. As I already mentioned, our assistants help us a great deal in this case. The second category involves questions related to acquisition of property. And the third category is about the correspondence of the candidate’s income to their lifestyle.

We understand very well that to err is human. But it is the candidates’ reaction that matters. Let’s take mistakes in their declarations. Some merely admit the mistakes, others do not and try to find an excuse. It is vital to ensure that the members of the High Council of Justice are strong personalities with solid values and beliefs, able to make correct and fair decisions.

– Why did the members of the Ethics Council opt for closed-door interviews with candidates for the position of a HCJ member till martial law is lifted? Is this decision planned to be reviewed soon?

Holding the interviews behind closed doors was not an easy decision. The wartime is the only and evident reason for this. We understand that it is very important for the society to keep the selection public. But it is even more important to keep the candidates’ families and friends, as well as their property safe. After all, it was no coincidence that Russian President Putin mentioned the HCJ in his speech in late February 2022. It is important for us that candidates tell the truth without fearing anything during the interviews. When martial law is lifted, we will make all interviews available to the public.

– May the candidates challenge the decisions of the Ethics Council? Or are the decisions final?

Yes, candidates may challenge our decisions. And some candidates did so. Some withdrew from the selection after realising their situation at the interview to avoid receiving a negative decision.

– Currently you are assessing the HCJ candidates nominated by the All-Ukrainian Conference of Prosecutors, the President of Ukraine, and the Congress of Legal Academics. When will the Ethics Council make the results public? After all, many criticise the Ethics Council for being slow.

The Ethics Council has completed the evaluation of candidates nominated by the All-Ukrainian Conference of Prosecutors and recommended 4 candidates for the position of the HCJ member. Also, we have admitted 13 candidates nominated by the President of Ukraine to the interview. The interviews are still on-going. We hope to conduct them at the shortest possible time.

What is your view of Ukraine’s progress in the judicial reform in recent years?

– Ukraine will have a bright future. The country now has the opportunity to build a transparent and fair legal system. The reforms have been launched and are really effective. Now I know and see people who are striving to make a change and defeat corruption, which has blocked progress and suspended all processes on the path towards European integration for so many years. But the ice has broken. I am confident that Ukraine will prevail both in the war and the fight against corruption, and become a member of NATO and the European Union.

What else do we need to do to become a state of law? Is there any one-fits-all recipe? You are former Prosecutor General of Estonia. What international practices of justice can Ukraine adopt, in your view?

– Motivation is No. 1. You have to strive for change. It is also important to understand why corruption is bad and why you need to have a different legal system. To achieve it, communications must be in place between the government and the people. You need strong non-corrupt leaders too.

I hope all reforms in Ukraine are aimed at this objective. As for the recipe for achieving the status of a state of law, three main ingredients are needed: a quality legislative framework, political will, and motivated actors. By the way, this is the best recipe against corruption.